GEOPOLITICAL, SOCIOECONOMIC, and global religious realities are in near-perfect alignment with indicators Bible prophecy foretells will be present as Christ’s Second Advent approaches.
Terry James, General Editor of www.RaptureReady.com and co-author of The Departure: God’s Next Catastrophic Intervention Into Earth’s History, sat down with us July 24, 2011 at the Future Congress on Emerging Threats and Challenges to discuss today’s headline issues and events through the prism of ancient biblical prophecies.
Check out links to the news stories we discuss at the P.I.D. News page at Facebook, and weigh in at the P.I.D. Radio Cafe.
Also, please visit the P.I.D. Radio Facebook page, and don’t forget the great Christian podcasters at the Revelations Radio Network.
Click the arrow on the player below to listen now, or right-click (control-click if you have a Mac) the “download” link to save the mp3 file to your hard drive.
I have a hard time believing anything a so called pre tribber says. There isn’t one scripture that places the rapture prior the tribulation and yet hundreds of book have been written about it. Why? For money!! The left behind series (La Hay/Jenkins) netted those boys a hundred million. These guys lust for money, power and the lime light.
This so called doctrine is going to lead millions to taking the mark of the beast. And for what reason? So these rascals can buy another house/boat/plane/fill in the blank.
I must comment that this is the second worst PID I’ve heard. Following the logic in the discourse on the rapture is like following a Hobo Clown through a train yard.
This guys trying to tell me that if I don’t believe in the rapture I have a problem with Salvation by Grace. He doesn’t explain why or HOW. This of course is a ridiculous assertion because it one does not FOLLOW from the other. I will tell you what does follow. Read the Book of Matthew in chapter 24 there is a chronological order of events (even with words like “then”) spoken by Jesus himself which has the rapture at the LAST Trump as in Revelation. So from he reading of the Bible I can see that the Rapture is at the LAST TRUMP.!
What is wrong with these people?!?! Tune out the world and just open the Bible and READ IT!!!
Hi,aVoice,
I’m partial to a Pre Wrath Rapture myself,but also like L.A. Marzulli, I’m partial to being a Pan Tribulation believer. It will all pan out in the end and we must be ready for any eventuality. However ……..I’ve several times posed the question. If the Post Tribulation view is true then who goes into the Millenium to repopulate the Earth. Picture the scene. After the Tribulation The Lord Jesus is returning with his Glorified Saints. At this stage there are two distinct groups on Earth, the saved and unsaved.The saved are translated into their glorified ,eternal bodies while the unsaved are consigned to Hades. Who repopulates the Millenial Earth? Certainly not the glorified believers.A Pre Wrath or Pre Trib Rapture would solve this problem. People could become believers after either event. Some have postulated that only mature Christians will be Raptured.Wow! those are going to be slim pickings! I tend towards believing that the Lord Jesus will Rapture all Christians,even “baby “ones. Two groups ,Believers and Unbelievers
Also ,in all those books that are written about a Pre Trib Rapture all the authors attempt to prove their case from the Bible. We just have to decide how successful they are. Also the authors of the “Left Behind” Series are entitled to their money . No one forced me or everyone else who bought their books to buy them. If we don’t fixate on just one possibility we will be able to roll with the punches.
I am a solid pre-tribber but I am always shocked at the anger non pre-tribber’s display when they express their points of view. I for one loved the show and think Terry James at Rapture Ready is most excellent and right on the money. Thank you for putting this show together!
I really enjoyed the show as well beanieweenie [ is that your real name?]. The Gilberts always give a good presentation.There is a warmth to their shows.
@ghillie
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not
From G4111; moulded, that is, (by implication) artificial or (figuratively) fictitious (false): – feigned.
Yeah, you’re right. They deserve their money and a few other things, too.
It was a great show, very encouraging , thanks for sharing. I plan on linking to my fb in a few days after wall settles down .
Thank you for the B-Day greeting :)))
Best & keep looking up…
I used to be a “pre-tribber” also. It would be great for me if i didn’t have to go thru terrible things even a terrible physical death! Except for a few things. The apostles. I wondered if they complained about having to be tortured, stoned, boiled in oil, and their skin stripped from them while they were alive, because the “rapture” didn’t happen?
Line upon line, precept upon precept….
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the **last trump**: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
LAST TRUMP!!
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall **not** come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
So even if there was a rapture, we would still be around for the BIG reveal!!
Genesis 7& 8 tells us that Noah and his family were shut up in the ark, this was God’s protection and preservation, but they weren’t “taken” out of the world. They still had to go “through” and God was with them. As well as Lot, the Isrealites, ect. There just isn’t any “history” in the Word to back the rapture up.
Jesus said:
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Contrary to what the “teachers” teach, this scripture has nothing to do with the rapture. It has everything to do with judgement. Just like the judgement in Gen.7&8. The wicked men were “taken”. The just were protected and preserved. So, if i am looking to be “raptured/taken” out before the tribulation, i’m not willing to lose my life to save it.
Jesus prayed:
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
A resurrection, not a “rapture”. If it were a rapture, why would he call it resurrection?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The First resurrection:
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Be encouraged and fear not!! He is able to Preserve His own and provide. Indeed keep looking up!! He is at the very door!!
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
amen
We argue a lot about things we don’t know don’t we? I have studied Eschatology for 37 years now and have for almost that entire time been a “pre-tribber”. However, I have been narrowing my hermeneutics down to the proper method of “scripture proving scripture” much more diligently over the last 8 years. What bothered me about my pre-trib stance, which matched Terry James’, was that I had to admit that I couldn’t defend the pre-trib position hermeneutically. Terry couldn’t explain it either in this broadcast. When he was asked a direct question about where the rapture is in scripture, he punted the ball giving a obscure reply. When Sharon and asked him to give a definitive convincing answer to those listening who don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture, and his reply was“”if they’re saved they may go kicking and screaming, but they’re going, ‘ as Chuck Misler says, we’ll explain it on the way up'”. He then remarks that he thinks most of this is wrapped up in the post tribbers thinking “they have to do something to be saved, to earn his salvation”. This postulation is remarkably ignorant. It’s actually an accusation without merit whatsoever. The pre-wrath or mid-trib position has nothing to do with works.
He also says that the word Apostacy in the greek Strong’s αποστασια(646) ap-os-tas-ee’-ah means something different than what every translation team of scholars translating every Bible translation maintains. That just doesn’t hold water. By inclusive error Terry later says it means BOTH a spiritual AND physical departure! This isn’t supported anywhere in the scripture except by misinterpreting where the rapture is seem in Revelation.
From Strong’s:
Pronunciation: ap-os-tas-ee’-ah
Origin: feminine of the same as 647
Reference: TDNT – 1:513,88
Part of Speech: n f
In Greek: αποστασια 1, αποστασιαν 1
In NET: abandon 1, rebellion 1
Count: 2
Definition: 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) (“apostasy”):-falling away, forsake. see GREEK for 647
Now let’s move on to answer the question ourselves here…
I’ll be short as I don’t have time here to elaborate… the Olivet Discourse tells all.
Jesus specifically tells us what things will happen in the order of there happening. When we compare what Jesus says in Mathew 24; Luke 21; and Mark 13 we then know EXACTLY when the ingathering of the saints is by comparing these 3 witnesses to Revelation! This had been hidden from me for so many years I was thrilled when I saw it finally! The ingathering happens in Revelation 6 at the breaking of the sixth seal. Compare it and see for yourselves! Then in Chapt 7 the angels are told to hold the wind back (as our ingathering had blown a hole in the heavens), and the church is seen in the last half of Chapt 7 after the 144,00 are sealed.
I have SO much more so say I can’t say it here but I would love to have an opportunity to share it with Derek and Sharon over the phone. This has been revolutionary to my understanding of the ingathering aka the rapture!
God Bless you all.
@OkieOilman
The reason he miss quotes the scripture is for money. There is big money in the pre trib dribble.
Although, I must admit, He is right on one thing. He is going to go in the great falling away.
My mind boggles when these rascals use apostasy for rapture.
By his own words, he has defected from the truth. Why? FOR MONEY!
He has 4 books for sale each at $18.
What books did Paul sell? Or Jesus sell (Boy that would make block buster sales records) or any of the prophets?
It is all about money. Period end of story.
Terry James believes his position on the Rapture i.e. Pre Trib. By the way ,I believe he has written at least ten books. All those who have looked into the timing of the Rapture mainly fall into the Pre, Post,or Mid Tribulation stance and I suppose Pre Wrath. All the different proponents write books extolling the virtues of their favourite beliefs. Some write books and sell them to help support their ministries or to just extoll what they believe is the truth. No need to call them greedy.There are a great number of Christian books produced every year. I disagree strongly with the contents of some of the books. Do I call them greedy rascals? No. I just think that in some things or in a lot of things they are wrong. If they are wrong [according to me at least] that doesn’t automatically make them a conniving villain or a conman.
As for selling books by Jesus or Paul.Have you bought a Bible lately? They cost to produce.The Gilberts write books to entertain, educate and to make a bit of money [ perhaps a little bit]. They cost to produce.
aVoice and Thomas you both sound so angry, impolite and uncivil. The Gilberts lean towards the Pre Trib stance themselves I believe. Just hold that idea and go back and read what you’ve said about Pre Tribbers. If the two of you are serious,you must realize that your ideas can be called into question as well as the ideas of everyone else . L.a.[not Marzulli] your ideas might be blindingly obvious to you but perhaps not to me and others. Do I attack you instead of trying to discuss things with you? No, perhaps I’m wrong and don’t realize it.
@ ghillie, I like yer Style, if ya play the fb game I hope you’ll tap me, chances are we got a couple of mutual friends. I’m the Leonard F. looking up in pf pic.
Thanks for sharing yer thoughts.
Best 🙂
What we have here is American right wing political dogma mixed with Bible Prophecy.
First it was Russia that was the great enemy and now its Iran all fitting nicely with U.S foreign policy
This guest is just “proof-testing” Bible verse to fit his own version of the Bible.
Why does the guest not mention India in Bible Prophecy, which will have the second largest economy next to China by 2020.
@George Bush: Probably because the enemies of Israel mentioned in biblical prophecy are either named, like Persia, or described as coming from “the uttermost north” — like Russia.
@ghillie,
I totally understand where you are coming from. You said:
“Terry James believes his position on the Rapture i.e. Pre Trib…..”
The Word is never changing, not even to fit our own agenda’s. There’s alot of things i don’t like in the Word. But, i accept them because i Love the Truth. Loving the Truth is my protection from being decieved. Have you ever been lied too by someone you loved and respected? Hurts doesn’t it? Makes you feel like to them, you aren’t worth telling the Truth too. I’d rather be hurt by the truth, than hurt from a lie. Jesus was always tickin’ the pharisees off with the Truth, but He did it out of perfect love.
Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
Dear Sharon and Derek,
My intent was not to dissuade belief in nor promote the rapture.
Mine was only to present the Scriptures of the Truth. Would I like to get “out” of here before the @#$% hit the fan?…Uh.. Yea!!! But, it’s not to be. That was evident when Mr. James couldn’t provide scriptures to back his opinion.
On W.C. Fields death bed he was reading the Bible, which it’s reported he never did. When asked why he was reading it, he replied, “Just lookin’ for loopholes, just lookin’ for loopholes.” I wonder if he found any?
I have enjoyed and learned alot from your shows for a very long time. I intend to continue to listen.
God Bless you and God bless your ministry!!
p.s. It’s almost apple pickin’ time at Grissom’s!!! I can almost smell the pie!!!
The Messiah, the apostles and the prophets never, repeat, never sold books on their messages for any reason. What they were given freely they gave freely.
The entire worldly philosophy is money and profit oriented.
Why do you want to emulate them?
If the Creator has given you a message that is important to share with the world, WHY DO YOU SELL IT? If it is not important, why do I want it?
The only answer to these questions is the love of money.
@aVoice,
I think God knows what these “merchandisers” are doing. Not all are merchandising however. That’s where discernment comes in. We have to take responsibility for our own decisions. And if we are discerning, we will know who the Lord would have us give too. Ministries with sound doctrine, that feed the sheep with the Pure Word of God. Some are easily discerned, and some take a little more prayer and discernment. All in all it’s pretty simple. If, the ministry is getting a “new” revelation every two minutes of the day and you can know this “new” thing for a price, it’s pretty sure that they are
bogus. So just turn them off and go on. It really comes down to us doesn’t it? If we all turn off the false teachers, they would go away. But alas, there is a sucker born every minute!
Hello la [not Marzulli], I agree that we need to use our discernment. The ” money grubbers ” soon become apparent.Some Christian websites ask for monetary assistance if the reader feels led to do so. L.A.Marzulli’s ministry I believe is founded almost entirely on book and DVD sales and contributions [love gifts]. He has said that he has only twice called for financial assistance.He could put his books on the internet as free downloads but he is supporting himself through his sales. The Apostle Paul worked as a tent maker for a while to support himself. He presumably accepted wages and did not work for free.For a while he had a “day” job and I suppose worked at “nights”for “free” spreading the Gospel.When he was a full time preacher I would imagine he survived on donations.In fact in the New Testament it says that full time preachers should be supported.They earned their bread by preaching the Gospel. Some Christian ministries today support themselves through their sales but also have a tremendous number of free downloadable podcasts.Much of what is in their podcasts is in their books to a certain extent. I’ve downloaded a lot of information from Peter Goodgame’s website but I’ve also bought his book “Red Moon Rising”. I’ve just realized that in all the years I’ve listened to the Gilberts I’ve never bought one of their books or even thrown a couple of dollars their way . They don’t expect it but I’ve learned so much and been buoyed up so much by their ministry.If I buy a few of their books it might help towards upgrading their radio gear or something.
Hope the above makes sense. I think I managed to lose myself there a couple of times.
Do you have apple trees la? here in the dry tropics part of Australia where I live we of course can only grow tropical fruit: pawpaws ,mangoes etc. It must be nice to grow temperate fruit but I certainly wouldn’t be able to stand your Temperate Winters.
I love the Lord, follow Him with all my heart, seek to know Him increasingly daily…whenever I hear most men wax eloquent on this kind of eschatological topics, there is so much speculation, theory and “I think…” Every one sounds thoroughly convinced of their position, with supporting scriptures, etc. No one actually knows with certainty how/when/the manner all of this plays out. Keep your eyes squarely on the Lord Jesus, love Him with all your heart, mind and soul and let the chips fall where they may. Loving and knowing Jesus Christ is the best preparation for what lies ahead.
P.S. Love your show Gilberts…you guys do a great job! 🙂
@ghillie,
Hi, yes i agree with you. Paul did work and some of his Brothers and Sisters did help him out. The way it should be. He didn’t however, stand on the temple steps and “demand” offerings or withhold the Word from anyone if they didn’t have anything to give. Or manipulate the Word to cause people to believe in error.
It’s a shame when the “prophets” will give you a word, for a buck. They will really have alot to answer for when they stand before God.
~ I like the season changes. The orchard is about 3 miles from the town i live in. They are organically grown and are the absolute best tasting ever! They grow about 30 different varieties. Mostly heirloom. Yum!!
The snow falls and the wind blows. It’s not bad tho. I guess i’m used to it. I enjoy getting things ready for the winter. We heat with wood and it’s really nice to get out in the woods and just be.
I was surprised to know u are in Australia. But, after all this is the world wide web! It’s nice to meet you.
God Bless!
@ Nick,
Absolutely we MUST keep our eyes on Jesus. I do appreciate your zeal for the Lord!
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
So you see we can know. It is all ours for the asking.
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
God bless!
Sharon & Derek: LOVING your PIDtv… and that you two are back online!! Appreciated your comments on Glenn Beck “Restoring Courage” tour to Israel and see with interest that his program on the trip is being highlighted on two channels today, one of which is TBN (hel-lo?? “Trinity Broadcasting?!? Oh wait; they cancelled Hal Lindsay for a time, didn’t they?? Hmmmmm.)Keep up the good work – and treat yourselves to the interview on Olive Ministries between Jack Kinsella, herself and Ed Decker (author of The God Makers).Jack K. shares insights about his experience on Beck’s tour.
Bless you as ‘watchmen’ on the wall… who says dachschunds aren’t ‘watch’ dogs?!
I don’t mind anyone making money on books they sell. We buy all kinds of books of every kind. They serve a purpose, to educate, inform and entertain, and cost money to produce. Even the digital books take time and effort to produce.
The issue is the viewpoint. I believe there Terry and others are just mistaken and because they lack a sound hermeneutical process they simply misinterpret the scriptures.
It’s wonderful to see what we miss and correct it. It’s a marvel when the Holy Spirit reveals His truth and we see it uncovered.
Blessings!
[Hi PID. Found this brain-teaser while on the web!]
PRETRIB RAPTURE SCHOLAR WANNABES!
by Dave MacPherson
To become a PH.D (Pretrib History Distorter) or a D.D. (Doctrinal Deviant), do the following:
(1) MISSPELL THE LAST NAMES OF MANUEL LACUNZA, MARGARET MACDONALD, C. I. SCOFIELD, HAL LINDSEY, GRANT JEFFREY, TIM LAHAYE ETC.
(2) STATE THAT MARGARET MACDONALD WAS A PLYMOUTH BRETHREN MEMBER, OR THAT JOHN DARBY WAS HER PASTOR.
Wrong and wrong.
(3) OR GUESS THAT MARGARET WAS AN IRVINGITE, OR THAT EDWARD IRVING WAS HER PASTOR.
Wrong and wrong again.
(4) ASSUME THAT MARGARET MACDONALD ORIGINATED “DISPENSATIONALISM.”
This “straw man” assumption by Jack Kinsella (“Is Dispensationalism a Recent Doctrine?,” 8/11/11) is totally missing from all genuine scholarship, and Jack can’t find her even mentioning that long word!
(5) CLAIM THAT MARGARET’S PRIVATELY CIRCULATED 1830 RAPTURE “REVELATION” TAUGHT ONLY THE POSTTRIB VIEW.
Longtime No. 1 pretrib rapture leader John Walvoord’s “Rapture Question” proves (p. 105f) that Margaret’s view (that only PART of the Church gets raptured) has long been a widely held form of the PREtrib view – and Charles Ryrie’s 1981 “rapture” book and other pretrib works have purposely ignored Walvoord!
Margaret’s 1830 “revelation” saw “the one taken [before Antichrist’s revealing] and the other left.” The PART of the Church left on earth after the rapture was viewed by her collectively as “the Church” – the same wording used in the same way by later partial rapturists! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” and “Edward Irving is Unnerving.”)
(6) REPEAT THE FALSEHOOD THAT JOHN DARBY WAS DISPENSATIONALISM’S “FATHER.”
Darby wasn’t original on any crucial aspect of that system including the “church/Israel dichotomy,” the church being absent from a future “Jewish” tribulation, the “Jewish” book of Matthew, the “literal method,” the “Gentile parenthesis,” the “ruin of the church,” and especially the “pretribulation rapture.” Margaret was the first to “discover” pretrib in the Bible and she shared her novel interpretation only privately with others (spring of 1830). Rev. Edward Irving and his followers, who credited Margaret, were the first to publicly teach it (September of 1830) in the Irvingite journal “The Morning Watch.” Darby didn’t clearly express pretrib until 1839 – and when he did he plagiarized the exact same Rev. 12 “man child caught up” argument Irving had publicly used eight years earlier!
(7) TRY NOT TO REPRODUCE MARGARET’S 117-LINE PRETRIB RAPTURE “REVELATION.”
But if you do, copy it like Thomas Ice who in 1989 copied it so quickly he somehow omitted a total of 49 words from different sentences – the same 49 words that Tim LaHaye left behind in his 1992 book “No Fear of the Storm”! LaHaye (pp. 168, 207) also came up with two different titles for Lacunza’s famous old book – neither one correct! (Google “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” (which reveals that Ice’s “Ph.D” was issued by a school that was fined by the state of Texas for illegally issuing degrees!), “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice,” and “LaHaye’s Temperament.”
(8) DON’T LET YOURSELF QUOTE ACTS 2:34-35, ACTS 3:21, OR I THESS. 1:7-8.
Why? They prove that Christ can’t leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture!
(9) READ PRETRIB INTO AS MANY PRE-1830 WRITERS AS POSSIBLE.
Such writers used only double meaning or unclear phrases like “escape,” “taken away,” “before the general conflagration,” “before Armageddon” etc. – but many of your readers will believe you if you assert that the ancient writers were really teaching pretrib!
Even Walvoord couldn’t find ANYONE before the time of Darby (whom Walvoord labeled as an “early pretribulationist”!) who taught pretrib, so Walvoord had to settle for only what seemed to be “imminence” (in three of the earliest church documents) which seemingly could fit into the pretrib scheme – and Walvoord even censored portions of the ancient statements which, when quoted completely, revealed the posttrib view! Is it possible that John Bray, Thomas Ice, Grant Jeffrey and some others can locate – or manufacture – evidence of pretrib before 1830 that even Walvoord couldn’t find?! (To see exposures of those claiming to find pretrib before 1830, Google my internet article entitled “Deceiving and Being Deceived.”)
(10) IGNORE ARTICLES ON GOOGLE AND YAHOO LIKE “PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS,” “PRETRIB RAPTURE DIEHARDS,” AND “PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRECY.”
If you ignore this advice, at least take some tranquilizers first!
(11) PLAGIARIZING IS EASIER THAN RESEARCHING. BUT TRY TO DISGUISE YOUR THIEVERY!
If you think that stealing isn’t a way of life for pretrib promoters (from Darby to LaHaye), you’ve never Googled “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” or “Thieves’ Marketing.”
(12) IF ALL ELSE FAILS, CLAIM THAT REV. 3:10 PROVES PRETRIB.
Avoid Googling “Famous Rapture Watchers” which reveals how the greatest New Testament Greek scholars of all time interpreted it.
Finally, I invite you to obtain my 300-page, highly endorsed online book “The Rapture Plot.” What you’ve read so far in this paper is less than one percent of the mountains of documentation on pretrib rapture history in this book of mine. Some of my web articles, such as the ones listed above, are on various blogs (owned by my good friend Joe Ortiz) including “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation.” Joe is the author of two excellent books that biblically refute the Rapture to Heaven mythology, namely, “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation.’ “
Dave: We may disagree with Joe, but we consider him a dear brother in Christ and we’re honored to call him a friend. Thanks for taking the time to write.
I have a verse for those who insist there isn’t one having to do with the pre-tribulation ‘catching away’ of the Body of Christ from the earth–but, it’s also been rejected out of hand by those who simply can not bring themselves to believe God could take care of His own in such a manner–for what ever reason they come up with–so, here it is–read it, and weep, nash teeth, throw things, or whatever–then, explain it all away for yourselves, and continue on with your lives–just please stop angrily verbally chastising those of us who do not believe as you do, when it comes to this subject:
[To understand this verse, you first have to understand to whom the Lord is addressing His remarks]
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia….Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH.”[Rev. 3:7,9,10 KJV]
Now–go right ahead and tell me that verse is just not good enough to show the fact of a pre-trib, or anytime-at-all, Rapture of the Body of Christ by the Lord, Himself–you won’t be the first to complain and reject it as proof of anything, and you probably won’t be the last.:)
Why not try reading just one more author who has done more research into this subject of a Pre-tribulation Rapture than just about anyone I’ve seen–his name is Peter Goodgame, and his website is just chock full of information that you all might find interesting, if not comforting and maybe even challenging–maybe–
http://www.redmoonrising.com
I hope the Lord’s commands to us are what we all come to learn to live by–Love God and put Him first; Love our neighbor as we love ourselves–because, if we don’t obey Him we show Him we don’t really love Him–He said that, not me.
Maranatha–“Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.”[Rev. 22:20]
KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION
How does “KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION” translate to “The rapture occurs prior to the tribulation”. English is my mother tongue, but I must confess I went to public school, but I do not see tribulation or rapture.
At the very best this is a weak inference. You do not make doctrine based on weak inference. That is reserved for authors to fleece the flock with.
How about
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
A direct reference to the rapture immediately after the tribulation. But who cares. You can’t sell millions of books using the truth.
There are many more direct references but I will not share them with you for I fear they will fall on deaf ears.
As for reading this author or that author in regards to finding the truth regarding the rapture, I challenge you to throw away all those books and read the scriptures alone.
People can believe what ever they want,but I have a problem with post tribbers who throw statements around like, the pre tribbers will be the one’s that fall away and follow the anti christ. First of all really? Because I have a different view of the timing of the rapture I am a less worthy and less faithful believer,that makes alot of sense. As for ptoving the pre trib rapture view,the things that are,it is easy if you believe certain principles. If you believe the Church is now Israel(replacement theology) then you are correct to believe the Church will go through the tribulation,if you believe the Church and Israel are distinct,you can’t believe in a post trib view! why? Because it is clear that the 70th week of Daniel was determined upon Jews and Jerusalem(Dan.9:24) not the Church. The first 69 weks were focused on Jews and Jerusalem,so will the the 70th week.Also, in Zech.13:8-9 God promises that all believing Jews will live through the day of the Lord and 2/3 of all Jews(unbelieving Jews) will die. In Rev.7 God seals the 144,000 thousand Jews,who are called the first fruits unto God and the Lamb,so they are not the first fruits of the Church,but of Israel.They too are promised to be protected to the end. So who dies in Rev.6,7,20 ? Gentile saints,if we are to take God at His word they cannot be Jews.How can the Church still be functioning if God separates Jews from Gentiles? If the Church was still functioning those Jews would be members of the Church,not saved Israel. Also in Matt 25 God judges the Gentiles apart from the Jews,the Church cannot be functioning or God is allowing some of the Gentile Church to be killed and all of the Jewish Church memebers to live,that is not scriptural. The Church is gone in ch 4 of revelation beore Jews are called out separately.
In Rev.1:19 the Lord divides the book into 3 categories. Ch 1(past)are the things you saw,the vision in ch 1. Ch 2-3 the Church age are the things that are (present tense). Then Jesus says ,”the things that will take place after this (meta touta in Greek)the things after what? The thing which are after the things that are, the Church age. In Rev. John is called up hither(the same Greek phrase used to call the two witnesses in Rev 11 to their resurrection and rapture) and hears a voice like a trumpet saying come up here,why the symbolism? And I will show you things which must take place after this(meta touta again) after what? After the things that are the Church age. So John is being shown what happens after the Church age. He sees Gods throne and then he sees a group called the 24 elders. The Book of Revelation has 404 verses and somewhere between 500 and 800 allusions to the OT,that is the key to understanding the bood of Revelation.People get hung up on the number 24,it is used one place in scripture 1Chron.24, where it reveals there are 24 courses to David’s temple priesthood,so 24 is the completed Temple priesthood.I know I know let me keep going,it doesn’t just end there.lol Then these elders are described in a way that can only be the Church and have things attributed to them that were just promised to the overcomers in the Church in ch 2-3. Thones(rev.3:21),white raiment(Rev.3:25),crowns of gold(rev2:10;3:11). Then a song is sung by them that only the Church could sing they sing,” we ahve been redemmed by your blood by every tribe,tongue,people and nation(only Church). you have made us kings and priests(only three people can be kings and priests Jesus(Heb.1:8;4:4) ,melchizedek(Gen 14,Heb 7) and the Body of Christ(Rev.1:5-6;1Pet2:9) and we shall reign on earth.” No one but the Church can claim these things ,NO ONE! The the tribulation begins in Rev 6.Also,if you go to Matt 24 the first 6 seals of Rev.6 match up perfectly with Matt 24,so the Church is heaven when Matt 24 takes place,which I will prove.But first,if the rapture is at the end of the trib where is it found in Rev? In Ch 20 only dead saints are resurrected not living,read it carefully,no living resurrected,why? Because saved Jews have lived through the trib and some Righteous (MATT .25:37) Gentiles in Matt 25 have lived through and will go into the kingdom to be the subjects and repopulate the kingdom.
We have been brain washed by the RCC and Reformed Theology that the Church is all that matters and the Church is everywhere,that is what happens with Matt 24.When I hear people knock pre trib believers and say,”go to Matt 24 and read it stupid”,it cracks me up.Look at Matt 24 with an open mind for one minute in vs 4 it says, “don’t be decieved for many will come in my name”.How many born again believers would be deceived by a man claiming to be Christ?NONE!!! But Israel,will be looking for a human Messiah(saved Jews) not the Church). The intervening verses take alot of time ,but all can easily apply to the the Jewish saved remnant as only one or two at the most,could the Church. In vs 7 Nations will hate you for my names sake,well the word nations is ethnos which is translated Gentile over 90 times and nation just over 60 times,so it is Gentile nations will hate you for my name sake.The Church will be weak if it was functioning and not hated as much as Israel by all Gentiles,but the Church is gone before the beginning of sorrows,the first 6 seals ibegins anyway.Matt.24:13- The those who endure to the end is never promised to Gentiles,but is promised to Jews(Zech.13:8-9)and read Matt 10 the first time it was used and see who is involved ,Jews to Jews only. For times sake I will make it simple, how many Church members will be in Jerusalem when the Abomination of Desolation takes place and told to flee to Judea,none!!(Saved Jews).This is also described about Jews in Rev.ch12, obviously referring to Jews. Then in 24:2o it states,”pray your flight is not in winter or on the Sabbath.” Jewish,not speaking about the Church!!!!!!,unless the entie Church switches to keeping the Sabbath(Jewish) Matt 24 and 25 doesn’t mention the Church one time(refers to those being gathered from one end of heaven from the other to return with Christ(vs31 there is not just one trumpet guys,cmon),it is all Israel and all 2nd coming.Those taken in Matt 24:40-42 ate the they who are drinking and marrying,not Noah which is singular.They are taken for judgment,just like Matt 25 says the goats will be taken,not the rapture of the Church,read it carefully ,please,it is judgment that happened to them in Noaha’s day,not raptured or delivered,percision in language matters.
Let me ask you this, is Jn 14 where Jesus comes to talke believers back to where he has been for 2,000 or so,the same as Rev.19:11 where Jesus comes with His sainst,I hope you said no,if not you have bigger problems than the timing of the rapture. Not to mention IThess 5:9-11where it states we will be delieverd from the wrath by the rapture,look at the language, same as 1Thess 4,alive or dead with the Lord,that only happens at rapture,read it carefully. Also,Rev.3:10 says that believers will be kept out of “the time” of “the trial”(double article a specififc time)unlike th earth dwellers who will be judged,well I don’t know about you ,but I am not an earth dweller,my home and citizenship is in heaven as is yours.(Heb.11:13;13:14 etc) If you want to believe the Church is going through the tribulation,then explain away everything I just showed you ,the only people that can do that are those who claim the Church is Israel,which I categorically deny,but at least they have a view that is consistent,unlike those who believe Jews and Gentiles are distinct,but don’t follow through in their interpretation.I hope I have at least shown some of you angry post tribbers that the pre trib view is not made up at all and also the post trib view can only stand when you misinterpret scripture like the butcher job most of you have done on Matt 24,read and study with an open mind,that is the only way to truly learn.I aplogise for the sloppines,I only had a few minutes to do this in,so I apologise ahead of time for mis spellings or any grammatical mistakes,I hope you will atually answer the facts and not focus on my mistakes,like most post tribbers will do.Thanks.
I have about 10 more arrows in my sack,but I think I have made my point,the pre trib position is not made up,it takes the position that God deals with the Church between the 69th and 70th week and back to Israel in the 70th week,which is backed up by all of the prophets. The 70th week,the Day of the Lord,the Time of Jacobs Trouble is for Israel to be judged and brought back to God(Hosea 5:15,Rom.11:25),not for the Church to be made more worthy,we cannot be made more worthy than the righteousness of Christ,which was imputed to us at salavation(Rom 4;Eph.5:26-27).People are entitled to believe whatever they want and please do,but stop with the straw man arguments of it is not scriptural,it is made up and pre tribbers are the apostates who turn on God when the rapture doesn’t happen.There is not one verse of scripture anywhere that you can point to that even remotely hints at that,so who is making things up?Thanks for reading this post.
In Christ
Richie G.
@Rich Giardelli:
A wise man once told me that every word after the usage of the word “but” is BS. If that is true, your post would be cut quite short.
You say “People can believe what ever they want” which is true. However, it doesn’t matter what you believe. It only matters what the scripture say.
Again, another, and I must say, a rather masterful collection of inferences. If you spent half your time on what clear scripture says, you would be a power house. What a shame.
Here is another clear scripture:
The scene: The Messiah is praying His High Priestly prayer at His last Passover dinner. The disciples are sitting with Him, hanging on to every word. The room is very dim being lit only by the candles around the room. The dinner has concluded yet the room smells of roasted lamb. Crumbs of matzoh bread are scattered on the floor.
The Messiah lifts His arms and prays:
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Four sentences latter He prays:
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The Messiah has just asked the Father to “NOT TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD.”
He has clearly stated His plan. HE AIN’T TAKING YOU OUT OF THE WORLD.
All your inferences are worthless in the face of clear scripture. But (see first paragraph) you can believe any thing you want.
You pre tribbers are not hard to figure out,gee you took a personal shot at me instead of actually contradicting my argument,that is par for the course. In John 14:2-3 Jesus states, “In My Fathers house are many mansions;if it were not so I would have told you.I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go to prepare a place to you,I will come again and receive you to myself,that where I am you will be also.” Jesus is coming to take a group of people back to where He has been for 2,000 yrs building them mansions(which fits the Jewish wedding type that God makes between Christ and the Church,another example of why the pre trib fits and post trib doesn’t). I think that qualifies of out of this world. So ,either Jesus forgot what He said back in Jn 14 when He prayed the prayer in John 17, or He wasn’t speaking about future,but at that time.He was clearly saying that that He was going ,but they had to stay and do the work that was intended for them to do.
The post tribber’s always claim that pre tribbers always use one or two verses,which isn’t true,when in reality it is the post tribbers who do that,or take verses out of contextto make their argument. The problem is you don’t make a distinction between Israel and the Church. Now we are in the Church age,but when the 70th week of Daniel begins,it is for Israel(Dan.9:24),not the Church. Roman’s 11:25 says that Israel’s blindness which has happened in part to Israel(Luke.19:42-judicial blindness because of their rejection of Jesus as Messiah,it is in part because some Jews believe and are part of the Church)”UNTIL” the fulness(word refers a cargo ship with no more room)of the Gentiles has come in.” When the Church is raptured before the 70th week,God will then in the 70th week,the time of Jacobs trouble,the Day of the Lord(all Jewish centered ideas terms and time periods)will turn His attention back to Israel. Why don’t you actually look at what I wrote instead of taking personal shots at me,your right who cares what I say if it is not in God’s word.Every single thing I have said has been backed uop scripture in context. You can keep going to one verse here or there out of context,but you cannot refute anything I have said with scripture,that is why you have to resort to making negative comments and putting me down personally,which is what most post tribbers do on a regular basis,I can only imagine what is coming next. Please actually look at what I wrote and refute it,if it is so wrong and so off base,refute it.
In Christ
Richie G.
Hey voice,I over reacted to your comments,it wasn’t that much of a put down,just a little one,that was actually nice and respectful for the avg post tribber,so I shouldn’t complain.lol
@Richie G.
Inferences never can out weigh clear scripture. Period.
In order for inference to be understood, lengthy explanations must be made. Otherwise the reader will miss the inference the author is trying to advance. Usually, these inferences with their explanations are gathered into volumes called books which are then sold to you. This gives the author a nice income while robbing you of both the money and the Truth. This falls under the scripture:
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Feigned words means “made up”, “fiction”. This is exactly what inference is.
When inference is in direct opposition with clear scripture, clear scripture wins every time. If you have a thousand inferences and the scripture has one clear scripture, you as a believer have a duty to throw away the inference and accept the scripture, no matter how difficult that may be.
Now the Messiah Himself has said that He will not be taking you out of the world. But you say that all the inferences that you have come up with says that He will take you out of the world.
So who do you believe? The Messiah or the inference?
You are right, you can believe what you want but the consequences are frightening.
You have no argument,that is the weakest response I have
ever heard.You got me,I don’t believe what Jesus says and you
do.lol John 14:2-3 is not an inference, the statement I quoted
is just as real as the verse you quoted.Did Jesus say what I
said He did, yes,He did,so either He is contradicting
Himself,or one of the statments is being misinterpreted.You
can keep repeating your one verse out of context and ignore
the Biblical truth I laid out because you don’t care what the
truth is,you believe that there is no pre trib rapture and
will not let the facts get in the way or your view.One of the
basic principles of interpreting scripture is to interpret
scripture whith scripture,not take one verse and pretend it is
the only verse in the Bible. I knew it was only a matter of
time before the name calling started,that is what happens when
you have no other argument.I must be a false teacher because I
disagree with your view,you can’t defend, that is so solid you
have to repeat one verse over and over again.I can say the
same thing to you, who do you believe the inference or the
savior,as if that proves anything. Jesus makes two statements
that differ,so one has to be taken out of context,please
explain how the John 14 verse is not in the context I used it.
You can’t,it is impossible to take in any other context than
the rapture,but the verse in John 17:15 can definately be seen
in the context of Jesus,knowing He is leaving ,then asks the
Father to prepare them for what they will have to do. You
can’t just ignore the OT and the NT teachings that are as
clear as day to anyone who actually is willing to look at
them.
Explain to me how a remanant of saved Jews and the Church
can exist together at the same time? Have you ever looked at
the book of Revelation,why does God separate 144,000 Jews from
Gentile believers ?Why are Gentiles judged separately in
Matt.25? You want to ignore 50 verses that diagree with you
and then pretend that John 14:3-4 does’t exists,but they do
exist. We are to study and rightly divide God’s word,not
repeat one verse and pretend the rest of the Bible doesn’t
exist,which is exactly what you are doing. In Rev 3:10,Jesus
says,Because you have kept my command to perservere,I also
will keep you from the hour(the time-not just the hour the
entire time)of the trial(both have articleds which means it is
a specific time of trial),which will come upon the whole
world,to test those who dwell on the earth”(earth
dwellers,people who are of the earth,we are not of the
earth).There is another verse that contradicts the verse your
using. Rev.19 the Bride,the Church is heaven before Christ;s
return,how did we get there if we are never going to leave the
world? Your using the John 17:15 out of context or all these
three verses are all out of context,which they are not. These
are not inferences they are verses that show the Church will
be gone,out of this world,but by all means pretend none of
them exist and keep holding on to your one verse out of
context,because you have already established the rest of the
Bible doesn’t exist ,just that one verse out of context.I am
sure your attacks will go up from a false teacher to unsaved
or some other derogatory statement,because when you can’t
refute,you lash out,I hope you are a better beleiver than that.
In Christ
Richie G.
And just to make a simple point,since you refuse to look at any of the many verses I have given to back up what I am saying,that simple point is that John 14 comes before John 17. So in Jn 14 Jesus said ,I am coming back and taking you to where I have been for the last 2,000 years building mansions for you.” So when Jesus speaks in Jn 17:15 He is not going to contradict the clear straightforward statement He already made. In the context of John 17 Jesus prays “I pray that you not take them out of the world,He then says ,”you sent me into the world and now I send them into the world” His point is that I don’t ask you to take them out because they still have work to do and that is why Jesus sends them out into the world. But when that work is done,it is clear that the Church will be taken back to where Jesus was for the last 2,000 years(Rom.11:25). As I pointed out in the last text, which you won’t look at the scriptures I have given, the bride is in heaven before Jesus returns in Rev.19. So if Jesus meant they were never going to be taken out of the world,He would have contradicted not only what He said in ch 14,but would contradict other clear verses in scripture,like Rev 19. When He says “I am coming back for you to take you back where I was”,it is not an inference,it is a clear statement of fact.You on the otherhand,to preserve your view,would have Him contradict Himself in Ch 14 and in other places of scripture,which we know the Lord cannot do.
In Christ
Richie G.
@Richie G.
Amazing… Inference wins the day!
What in the world are you talking about.First of all, John 14:1-3 is not inferring anything,it is a direct statment that
Jesus will be back at some point to take them back to where He
has been building mansions. Secondly,where have you learned
how to interpret scripture? If you do infer something and it
is based on a fact,there is nothing wrong with that. According
to your view,we can only use one verse by itself and any other
verse that odes not say the same thing word for word,it isn’t
valid. When you interpret scripture with scripture you are
inferring based on facts given in other passages of scripture.
Thirdly,how about you actually read all of John 17 and try to
at least get a little of the context correct before you use a
verse and repeat it again and again,as if it’s the only verse
in scripture on the subject. In John 17:24 Jesus
states,Father,I desire that they also whom you gave me
(Jn.6:39,44,45,65)may be with me where I am that they may
behold My glory which you have given me,for you loved me
before the foundation of the world.” That shows for a fact
that Jeus was not saying that they must stay in the world
forever. And if you take ch 17 in context of the whole book
then Jn. 14:1-3 speaks of the time Jesus is referring to in
17:24,because it uses the same words “I will come again to
receive you to myself;that where I am,there you may also be.”
Look at the words used in both,they are exactly the same.
Jn 14:3-I will come again and receive you to myself;that WHERE I AM,THERE YOU MAY BE ALSO.
JN.17:24-whom you gave me MAY BE WITH ME WHERE I AM.
Jesus is speaking about the exact same thing in both
places.One before the “keep the in the world statement” and
one after,obviously keeping them in the world is not
permanent. Where is it that they will be with Him,where He has
been for 2,000 years building mansions for them. This is
clearly different then in Rev 19:14 and Matt 24:30 when Jesus
comes with His sainst that have gathered from one end of
heaven to the other(Matt.24:31,Rev.19:7-8).In both
instancesthe bride or the church are already in heaven getting
ready to return with Christ. Jn.14 rapture and
Rev19:14;Matt.24:30 second coming to completely different
comings.Jn. 14 for His saints taking the back to heaven and
Rev.19:14;Matt 24:30 with His sainstback to earth,not the same
event.
If you want to ignore the context of the book of John,the
context of Jn 14 and 17 and ignore the context of all of
scripture and repeat one verse that is contradicted by all
three contexts be my guest,but it would be fooloish to do so.
I might be wrong,but somehow I get the feeling you have been
taught the post trib view in your church and have never
legitimately studies any other views,except for the straw man
pre trib argument your teacher or pastor made where he mocked
the pre trib view and came up with all of these false
peripheral reasons why it is not true. Please,take the time to
study both sides and then make a decision based on what
scripture says. The goal of all believers should be to be like
the Bereans in Acts 17:11 of which Paul states,”These were
more noble(fair minded)than thoe in Thessalonica,in that they
received the word with all readiness,and searched the
scriptures daily to find out if these things were so.”No
matter what your view ends up being let it be based on the
whole of scripture and not a couple of verses here or there
out of context. My conscience is clear,I have been honest and
given you verses that are in context and prove my view and I
would hope you would at least look at them and see what they
say and if they are true or not true,at least you will have a
reason for believing what you believe,instead of parroting
what someone else told you was true. Take care and I wish you
the best.
In Christ
Richie G.
@Richie G
Go write a book, you can make a lot of money.
This take on Israel is delusional. Chilling! Pull your head back out of your scripture and spend some time researching what Zionism really is. For God’s sake.
Hi, I happened upon your presentation format via southwest radio church and am encouraged and wish to encourage you in your activities. Have you listened to Stuart Crane’s tapes?
I love the way you use scripture to prove me wrong,no body
cares what your personal or my personal opinion is,the Bible
and what it says is all that matters.Your statement that I
should write a book and make money,as if that proves your
point,what Post trib authors don’t make money off of their
books? I do what I do because I love God’s word and want to
know what it says,not what some teacher or some one who
follows any teacher who has an agenda of his own. I use God’s
word and use it alone as the authority for what I say,there is
absolutely nothing you can say or do to disprove what I have
said ,except to bring up a single verse out of context. Read
John 17:24,it uses the same terminology as Jn 14,Jesus is not
saying that I want them to never leave the world. The context
is Jesus is leaving and He says I don’t want you to take them
out of the world,why? Because they have a job to do,but
Rom.11:25 in context says when that job is over and the last
Church member is saved, God will turn His attention back to
the Jewish people and the Church will be taken.
Someone brought up zionism,who said anything about
zionism? I never said that everything every Jew does is
correct or Biblical,but the scripture makes it clear that God
is not through with Israel.Read Romans ch 9-11 and see what
the scriptures say concerning God’s plan is for Israel.Also
Paul in Gal 3 makes it clear that only believing Jews are true
Jews. Zech.13:8-9 make it clear that believing Jews will be
kept from dying in the day of the Lord,they are not
zionists,just because you have a problem with Jews doesn’t
mean God does.What is chilling is that you can be so blind to
what the Bible says about God’s love for Israel. In order to
believe other wise you have to ignore most of the Bible,both
Old and New Testament authors. Who goes into the Kingdom and
receives the promises given to Jews(saved Jews)in the
unconditional,eternal covenants promised to them alone
(Abrahamic-Gen.12-17 ,Davidic 2Sam.7,New covenant Jere.31/not
Mosaic that was the only conditional covenants,dependent on
obedience-blessing Deut28:1-14 and disobedience-Deut.28:15-
63). The Jews that repent and confess their sin and rejection
of the messiah will be saved and kept until the end of trib
(Zech.13:8-9,12:10-13:1;Isa.43:1-6;Hosea 5:15-6:2;Rom.11:25-
26).In Matt.25 sheep and goat judgment,Gentiles believers
(Matt.25:37-righteousness only comes by faith,not works)will
be judged and rewarded in the kingdom(1,000 literal,physical
kingdom-LK.1:31-33)for how they treated Jesus’brethren,the
Jews.If I am wrong about the Jews,what do you do with all of
the verses that refer to Israel? What do you do with Ezek.38-
39 where it speaks of Israel coming back into the land,speaks
of Jerusalem being a stone around the neck of the Nations
(Zech. ch12-14). All of the OT prophets speak of Israel being
judged ,dispersed and brought back into the land and
restored,you have to ignore all of the OT prophets,covenants
and in The NT, Rom.9-11,the book of Revelation and the
gospels. What do you do,transfer all of that to the Church?
The problem is you have been brain washed by the false
westernization of the Church begun by Origin,Augustine,the
Roman Catholic Church and even the Reformers who replaced the
Jews with the Church,spiritualized the Scriptures and taught
there is no future 1,000 yr literal,physical kingdom. The
westernization of the Bible says that everything in the Bible
is the Church,it is all about the Church,but that is not
scriptural.
Study Daniel 9:24-27 and you will find that God was dealing
with Israel until they rejected the Messiah,then for a short
time period Israel was blinded(LK.19:42) and the kingdom
offered to them was put on hold and a spiritual kingdom would
replace it for a time(Matt.13:11) and would be fulfilled by
the Gentiles(Matt.21:43) and some believing Jews(Eph.2-3) and
would be in one body(Eph.3:1-8),the body of Christ. When the
Church has fulfilled it’s mission,God will then turn back to
Israel in the last week of the Daniels 70 weeks,the day of the
Lord,the Time of Jacob’s trouble-all Jewsih terms,and the
tribulation period and restore Israel to Himself(Rom.11:25-
26;Hos.5:15-6:2;Zech.12-14 etc). We are in a paraenthetical
period between the 69th and 70th week. Israel—–(THE CHURCH
AGE)——ISRAEL–1,000 YR Kingdom(saved Gentiles and Jews in
natural bodies,dead trib saints,OT saints-Dan.12:1-3,Church
will rule and reign with Chirst)—-eternity new heaven and
new earth. That is the plan the Bible,if taken as a whole
teaches this view.
Instead of mocking me,accusing me of being a false
teacher,or using one verse out of context,or quetioning my
salvation or my mental capacity or ignorance about Israle and
zionism,prove me wrong scripturally and prove all of what I
said wrong using the Bible only,do it using many verses in
context,using both OT and NT passages.The problem is you
can’t,that is why you have to resort to name calling and bring
up things like Zionism,as if that has anything to do with what
i have said.Please,use the Bible,that is all that matters for
either of us.
In Christ
Richie G.
Hey Jai yai,so I should get my head out of God’s word,which is absolute truth and base my beliefs on secular people who hate Jews,that makes alot of sense. God says that 2/3 of all Jews will be killed,but 1/3 of the Jewish people(the remnant of saved Jews)will be kept alive and will endure to the end(Zech.13:8-9;Matt.24:13). Whether Zionism is right or wrong does not make the word of God any less true. In Romans 11 Paul makes it perfectly clear God is not done with His people, the Jews.(Rom.11:1)Reformed Theology and their replacement of Israel,by the Church is not scriptural and makes God a liar,not to mention that it fueled the crusades,the inquisition and the holocaust.The hatred the world has for Israel is from Satan himself,Satan hates the Jews because they are the earthly chosen people of God,just like he hates the Church for being God’s spiritually chosen people. I would be careful about cursing the Jews and going against them as a people, considering God has said that “those who bless Israel, I will bless and those who curse Israel, I will curse”(Genesis 12:3).Throughout history that has been proven true again and again.No,God is done with His chosen people.(Rom.11:1 “Has God cast away His people,Certainly Not!”). I guess that is why you want me to get my head out of God’s word and read some subjective facts about zionism.
In Christ
Richie G.
@Richie G
Again, lengthy explanations so others can “understand” the inferences.
I can clearly tell what the scripture says. I don’t need you. If your lengthy explanations are different from what the scripture says, it’s not me who is in trouble, rather it is you.
You better be real careful telling people what the Creator is “really” saying. But you are your own man, keep at it, Richie.
Know this: Even a fool is thought wise when he keeps his mouth shut.
Go write a book, Richie. Be sure to charge an appropriate amount for it. And maybe, just maybe it will be put right next to Jim Baker’s books.
Once again,brilliant come back and tremendous use of scripture
to prove me wrong.You keep bringing the money thing up,I am a
regular Christian who loves to study God’s word,what is that
all about?lol I saw comments being made that were not true and
verses being taken out of context,so I explained what the
whole counsel of God teaches on the subject,isn’t that what
your suppose to do? You keep putting me down for using alot of
scripture to back up what I believe and somehow you not doing
that makes you a more faithful believer and a more faithful
interpreter of scripture? I have never said one thing about
anyone personally,I have not been cocky or arrogant,unlike
your attitude towards me.Also,I have not said one thing about
what the creator means or doesn’t mean unless I backed it up
with scripture upon scripture,like the Bible requires.
(Isa.28:10)
I better be real careful telling people what the creator
is “really” saying,I didn’t tell people what He was “really”
saying, I was telling you what He did say,in English for
anybody who actually wants to know what the Bible says and not
blindly follow what someone told you or you personally
think.The difference between me and you on this subject is I
have actually studied both sides(I realize not all subjects
have to be studied from both sides to know what is right or
wrong,but this one does,if your going to be intellecyually
honest) and have come to a conclusion after looking at both
sides of the argument. There are way too many discrepencies
with the post trib view,from the fact it has very little
actual scriptural backing it, to little problems like if the
rapture happens at the end of the tribulation,who goes into
the kingdom to repopulate it? How can there be a remnant of
Jewish believers if the Church is still functioning,how does
that work?The Church is one body of both Jews and
Gentiles,with no difference,but in the trib Jews are no longer
part of the Church,that cannot happen,that is a big reason why
the Church must be gone when God retruns His focus back unto
the remnant of saved Jews. How do you handle the fact that
Jn.14:1-4 is completely different than Rev 24:30-31;Rev.19:13-
16? Or what do you do with the Church/Bride already being in
heaven with Christ and judged(wearing white which are the
righteous acts of the sainst vs8) before the Second Coming?
What do you do with the the fact that at the 1st resurrection
(which is a part of the first resurrection,not the only part)
when no one living is resurrected(Rev.20:4-6)? I can go on for
an hour with simple problems or more complex problems. The
point is scripture has to agree with scripture,that is why you
taking Jn 17:15 and acting like it is the only verse in the
Bible and then accusing me of some kind of trickery with the
scriptures,makes no sense.First of all Jn.17:15,if interpreted
as believers never being taken out,directly contradicts what
Jesus said to the disciples about coming back to take them out
at a later date,back to where he had been,not to the earth
(Jn.14:1-4 and even Jn.17:24 says it) ,like He does at the
second coming. You have to have scripture agree with
everything you are saying.The reason I hold this view is
because it agrees with scripture as a whole,the post trib view
doesn’t.
Where you keep coming up with this whole right a book for
money thing is beyond me,I am not a writer,or a pastor,or a
teacher or anything else, other than someone who loves God’s
word and wants to understand what the Bible says for itself
and not what someone tells me it says,as I am you sure you are
as well. Were both believers who love the Lord and want to
know the truth,at this time we have different views,but you
need to learn to disagree and not treat someone like they are
an unbeliever or less sincere than you,just because they have
a different view,as if you have all knowledge and are never
wrong. You said I need to be careful about telling people what
God really said,which I never did,but there are certain things
you need to do to study a passage and one of them is to look
at the contexts of the passage,the
historical,cultural,grammatical and Biblical context,the goal
is to find out what God meant to the people He wrote the
letter to, in their historical,cultural,grammatical
setting.The problem is that we try to put our history,our
culture and our grammar and vocabulary onto the text,
including what we believe doctrinally,so sometimes the text
does say more that what we think it doesat first glance and
needs to be explained in those contexts,that is what we are
suppose to do,so I won’t apologise for trying to find out what
it meant when it was written,if that offends you I
apologise,but we are commanded to do just that(2Tim.2:15).
Most post tribbers are reformed and believe the Church is
Israel,which I don’t believe you are from what you have
said,but the other post tribbers who believe there is a
diffeence between Israel and the Church need toi follow
through on that.The problem is for the last 1500 years we have
been brainwashed into thinking the Church is all God cares
about,which just isn’t true. There will come a time when God
will turn back to the saved remnant,at that time the Church
must be gone. Read Rom.11 and especially Rom 11:25-26,the word
for fulnes has the idea of a cargo ship with no more room for
any more cargo,then God will turn back to Israel.I am not
making this up out of thin air!! It is all scriptural.
I know you don’t need me to tell you what the Bible
says,but if you are going to openly mock me and make comments
like you better be careful or you should sell a book, for the
thrid time lol you should at least tell me where I am wrong.
The problem is my friend,you don’t care what the Bible,or
anyone else says,your mind is made up,which is great if your
right,but terrible if your wrong. A teacher I once had
said ,”the only way you will stop learning,is if you think you
already know everything.” I like to study and keep studying to
prove what I believe right or wrong, according to scripture
and on this issue I have studied enough to know what the Bible
says on the subject,can you honestly say that you have done an
exhuastive study on the subject? If yes, show me where
everything or some of what I said is wrong.
In Christ
Richie G.
I don’t need to prove you wrong. The clear reading of the scripture already does that.
I read the scripture and take it for what is says. You, on the other hand, must make lengthy explanations to tell me what it “really” says. I will take the literal meaning of the scripture everyday over your inferences.
I don’t condemn you. You’re condemned already. And you did that all on you own… or did you? Have you been using other men’s work without attributing them?
From the first chapter of the Book of Enoch:
1) The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2) living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.
nuf said.
You sound like a fool,everything I wrote I backed up with scripture,bur somehow that isn’t important,you keep saying simple scripture states your point of view,yet give none of it. And what is funny with you post trib lemmings is that you make this a test of salvation,ooooh will I really be condemned to hell because I believe God will rapture the Church before the Jewish focused day of the Lord,70th week of Daniel.time of Jacobs trouble,which you want to pretend is only for the Church.I guess the rest of scripture doesn’t matter ,only the three verses that you butcher and take out of context.It is about the timing of the rapture,that will not determine if your saved or not,that is how out of it you actually are when it comes to this subject. I didn’t need to give long explanations to prove my point,but unlike you and your crew,I actually like to back up what I say with scripture and you mock the fact that I back what I say,as if your saying something is true is more accurate and more Biblical.So keep following your pastor or whoever taught you this and blindly spew your insults because you can’t actually defend your position or find fault with the actual verses I used to back up my point.That is typical,it is always the same thing,your not saved,your not spiritual,your not godly because you don’t believe what I believe,even though I can’t back it up.lol The difference between me and you is I have actually studied both sides and made a decision based on facts ,not what someone else told me and not be reading one verse of scripture and pretending there are no others verses in scripture. This is a situation where I am truly casting my pearls before swine,you have not read one thing I said and have not one time proving me wrong using scripture.You keep saying I better be careful when I say the Bible says this or this is what it really means,that shows your ignorance,I hate to break it to you the Bible wasn’t written to Americans in English in the year 2011,like you act. It was written in Greek and Hebrew,Greek being one of the most accurate and specififc languages English being one of the most ambiguous .The goal of interpreting scripture is to find out what God said to the people He wrote it to in their historical,cultural,grammatical,linguistic and Biblical context,not ours.People like you put your history,culture,grammar and doctrinal view onto the passage,that is why you have no idea what your talking about on this subject. We are to rightly divide the word,not take two verses and put our view on them and ignore the 50 verses that contradict our bias view.Everey single solitary thing I have written I have studied and made sure it was within all of those context.I get my view from what the scripture says not what I want it to say.So,don’t try to learn anything,be a lemming and don’t even know why you believe what you believe and call everyone who disagrees with you unsaved and condemned and false teachers and future apostates who will turn on the Lord a when the rapture doesn’t happen and the rest of that ignorant garbage and now you are accusing me of using other people work,no I can read and write and think for myself,you must be a suburban rich Kid,because you have really bad put downs,especially for the vicious post trib crowd.lol. I was trying to actually have a conversation with you but you can’t handle that so take care of your self and we will sonn find out,whatever is we are to work for the Lord because our labor is not in vain(1Cor 15:18)and that is what is really important.
In Christ
Richie G.
Hey Timby,your right,a psuedographical(Enoch didn’t write it) book,that I think is important ,but is not inspired over rules all of scripture,you have settled the issue.lol One little problem,I never said the righteous wouldn’t be in the tribulation! The Church,unless you are reformed,if so,you have bigger probelms than the timing of the rapture. That is the entire point of what I have been saying,the 70th week is determined upon Daniel’s people and his holy City,not the Church. The Day of the Lord(Isa.2;12;13:6,9;eZEK.3:30;13:5;jOEL.1:15;2:1,11,31;3:14;Amos 5:18-20;Obadiah vs15;Zeph.1:7,14;Mal.4:5),the time of Jacobs trouble(Jer.30:7) but it is all about the Church,right fellas,that makes no sense,but that doesn’t seem to matter,you have found your one verse that you think proves something,so I guess the rest of the Bible doesn’t count.
There are other elect(Rom 11:28) and other righteous(Rom.4) than the Church,that is my point. When does God deal with Israel? During the day of the Lord,that is why the Church will be gone(Rom.11:25). Church members are not promised to live through the tribulation,but the remnant of Jews are(Zech.13:8-9) and the 144,000(Rev 7) are the first fruits of that remnant that will live through the trib and go into the kingdom and receive the covenant promises promised to the Jewish people(Rev.14). Gentiles,who are not part of the Church are called righteous(Matt.25:37(,so that verse doesn’t contradict anything I have said,nice try though. Guys,I am not going to continue going round and round with you,when you give no actual proof of your view and have to either call names or make blanket statements that are not true.I hate to break it to you act your not more spiritual because you know one whole verse and repeat it a thousand times as if the rest of the Biblical context doesn’t count or doesn’t exist.All of the post tribbers say the same thing and accuse me of twisting scripture and depending on inferences,obviously you don’t know what either of those are or you wouldn’t keep making that statment,the verses I use are not inferences ,they are straight forward verses that state facts,I am sorry they prove you wrong,but that is the way it goes.All I can say,at least study so you can back up your view with scripture and instead of calling people names prove your point from scripture,if you can.I can give a better defense of your view than you do and I know it’s unbiblical bunk!!! I am not into one sided arguments so I am leaving this page,before I lose my testimony,I don’t care if people prove me wrong,but name calling and this one verse proves everything routine that seems to be the norm. Keep on studying and remember,this is not a test of salvation and whoever is telling you it is,is totally out of line,the TIMING ” OF THE RAPTURE WILL NOT DETERMINE WHETHER YOUR SAVED OR NOT AND FORTUNATELY,IT DOESN’T EVEN DETERMINE IF YOU GO IN THE RAPTURE,SO I WILL SEE YOU GUYS ON THE WAY UP.LOL
In Christ
Richie G
Have fun studying this, hopefully you will let the whole counsel of God be your guide ,not one or two butchered verses.
Again, long (and I mean long) explanations so we can understand what the bible is “really” saying.
I gave you simple scripture and you chose not to believe that. Why would I want to give you more when you won’t believe that either?
Again the Messiah has instructed us:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I believe this and practice it.